Pastor Bob Fu, the most well-known Chinese Christian, CEO and founder of China Aid, an organization which helps the prosecuted in China, the author of “God’s Double Agent”. In the interview for Go Against the Tide TV he reveals the lies and the propaganda in the Communist China.

Marian Kowalski, the leader of the 11 November Movement party: There are circles in Poland that call themselves conservative. And they want to connect Poland’s future with communist China. They’re encouraged by China’s economic success. They even claim that there is no communism in China. What would you say to that?

Pastor Bob Fu: I would say: read the Communist Party Manifest and the constitution of China – mainly the prologue. Chinese regime acknowledged, stated clearly that China is a communist country, so how can they deny this fact when a country says that is communist itself? Furthermore, there have been some changes. I suppose, Chinese Communist Party is learning the lessons of the former Soviet Union and some former communist satellite countries, it focuses on the economic development. Yes, comparatively, the Chinese economy had been going through some kind of progress in the overall capital, but on what price? And there has been so many, millions and millions, of Chinese citizens who live in extreme poverty, I mean they cannot afford food or schooling. Only the elite, Communist Party’s children, maybe only 2-5%, controls China largest capital – the economy of China. So, if you want to give some historical perspective to compare, think about it: under Nazi Germany in 1930’s the German economy was way more prosperous than the today’s communist China. Should we have said: let’s cooperate with Nazi Germany and help them, and work with them, and please Nazi Germany? We have certainly learned the history of 1939.

Kornelia Chojecka: Thank you very much for the answer to this question. Nowadays, it is a big problem in Poland. Communist China is being promoted, especially among young people. Here are the questions from our viewers, there are almost 3 thousand viewers watching live, and one of the questions is: Many young people in Poland are fascinated with China. How would you, in a few words, warn them against such an attitude and tell us about the real situation in today’s communist China?

B.F: Yes, China is a fascinating country, because of its rich history and, of course, a lot of sceneries: the Great Wall, the Yangtze river, the Forbidden City. But my dear friends there, in Poland: you should also not forget about the millions of Chinese citizens, who are being imprisoned unjustly and for simply exercising their own constitutional rights. That is something I support my own perspective with. When I was at the university, there was a peaceful protest in Beijing in 1989. So I went to Tian’anmen Square and just followed the peaceful protest. And because of that protest, Chinese communist regime, using military tanks and machine guns, killed, murdered, massacred hundreds if not thousands of innocent students and citizens. And today, there is no such thing as free election. It is still a brutal dictatorship and authoritarian rule. So many Chinese citizens are not allowed even to exercise their basic constitutional rights guaranteed by the Chinese communist’s own constitution. For instance: children under 18 years old are not allowed to receive any religious education, children are not allowed to go to any church or Sunday schools and even the Chinese Communist Youth League members are not allowed to have any freedom of religious belief. Many Chinese citizens were even not allowed to carry a copy of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which the Chinese government acknowledged in legal form. Citizens in Uighur, Muslim area in western China, cannot even practice their faith freely. Already over a 150 Tibetan monks have suffered so much that they self-mutilated, they were burning themselves to death in the most desperate protest. They cannot officially acknowledge their spiritual leader, Dalai-Lama. I can name on and on. This is still the reality of China which we cannot ignore. Despite communist party’s propaganda overseas, try to portrait China as a different country as you believe it to be.

K.Ch.: I wanted to ask about the current situation in China. In Poland, the same politicians, Catholics, as Marian Kowalski said, say that forced abortions in China are a thing of the past. I know that you yourself had to flee from China with your wife Heidi because of forced abortions. Is this really the past in China? How is it really like?

B.F: The forced abortions are still being carried out now. As you just mentioned, my wife and I were imprisoned, as I wrote in the book, for conducting a house church worship and the Bible study, and Bible training school. After that, my wife and I were released from prison and my wife was pregnant without the pregnancy permit. This evil family planning system has caused so much tragedy going on in millions of Chinese families.

By the Chinese communist own account, in the past 30 years of so-called family planning policy, over 300 million children were prevented from being born. 300 million! And most of them were forcefully aborted.

Some women, who were 8-or-even-9-months-pregnant, were treated like pigs and dragged into the slotted beds in hospitals, and were induced with a poison or drugs to kill their babies. So the communist party, of course, had to harvest the very dangerous consequences, because of this „one child per family policy” and that Chinese traditional families prefer boys over girls. So regional male to female ratio was enormously unbalanced over the years. And now, there are figures that show that there are 20 million more boys or men than women. So the communist party, beginning from a year ago, started a “2 children per family policy”, but it’s still destructive and brutal family planning policy. So if you are pregnant with the second child without the permit, you are still subjected to forced abortion. And if you are pregnant with a third child, that’s absolutely in violation of family planning policy, that would subject pregnant women into forced abortion. Last week, we have reported Uighur woman from Kazakhstan. The father of the baby was from Kazakhstan, he married a Chinese Uighur lady from Xinjiang and it was their third baby, so his wife was dragged, arrested, and they forcefully aborted her baby. So this is still happening today, maybe not as common as during the period from 1980’s to a few years ago, but the forced abortion continues.

K.Ch.: Thank you very much for this comment, there are many distortions on the topic. And such news about China rarely come to Poland and to Western countries. I would turn now to the most appalling thing for Chinese people now, which is Pope Francis’ dealings with the Communist China. He has betrayed Catholic bishops who have been loyal to Vatican. Catholics in China are threatening Vatican with a schism. Will betrayed Catholics in China remain loyal to Rome?

B.F: It is certainly a very great concern that the Vatican attempts to reach a compromise in exchange for a diplomatic relationship with communist China. I think that the main concern is whether the Vatican will be able to keep its independent rule in appointing the bishops and other Chinese essential clergymen. As we all know, this is a fundamental issue in China. The communist party has been very adamant about the so-called “Chinese Church” or The Church in China that are under control of the Chinese Communist Party. They have the final say in everything. So I think it would be a real betrayal, especially to the millions of underground Chinese Catholics, who had been suffering so much; some even suffered martyrdom under the brutal communist regime. If the Vatican chooses to compromise on this fundamental principle by allowing Chinese communists to have the authority to appoint the bishops… It will be unacceptable to many church members and independent church leaders. Especially, if the brutal persecution continues.

K.Ch.: How can Vatican’s decision affect the battle with the communism around the world today?

B.F: The decision that was made by the Vatican will have serious consequences because, firstly, the nature of the Chinese communism has not changed, compared to what had been happening in the former Soviet Union, compared to the same communism that ruled Poland, Czech-Slovakia, and other Eastern European countries.

K.Ch.: There are examples of people saying such scandalous things in the Vatican.

The Chancellor of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Bishop Sorondo, said in China: “China can be the model country we need today to respond to globalization, a model of human dignity and freedom, a model of how to fight a new kind of slavery – organ trafficking”.

Bishop Sorondo: – Those who best carry out the social doctrine of the Catholic Church are the Chinese. In China, economics does not dominate politics, as is the case in the United States (China, much better than many other countries implement the encyclical of Francis “Laudato si” and also defends the Paris Agreement). China (in this way) takes on moral leadership, which others rejected. China, unlike the US, works for the greater good of our planet.

Pope Francis on communist China: This is a great state that brings the world great culture and many good things. For me, a friendly relationship with a country such as China that has such a culture and so many opportunities to do good would be a joy.

B.F.: That statement is very misleading, at a minimum. I think China as a country, as Pope Francis said, is a great country, with great history and Chinese people; and many Chinese citizens are faithful and peace loving, but, unfortunately, the Chinese regime is not. For more than 60 years, under the brutal communist rule, China has been getting worse in case of most human rights indexes. For instance, the Chinese regime has been oppressing more Chinese believers of different faiths than the whole world combined, China has oppressed more journalists than rest of the world combined. Chinese regime even in as late as 2017 have persecuted over 223 000 Chinese Protestant Christians and over 3700 Christian leaders were arrested, and among them over 347 were formally persecuted in court. So as you can see, the statement made by Vatican officials that China is a place without slavery is a really great mistake and is misleading. It may not have the public or legal enslaving system, like in the 1800’s in America, but the communist party has dealt, has brutally enslaved billions of people, and there is a brutal controlling going on.

K.Ch.: Editor Hanna Shen, who couldn’t be with us today, asked about the rise of the number of Christians in China in spite of persecutions. She also asked how Christianity can change China. Is there any hope for communist China?

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B.F: The question is: how can Christian faith change China? Actually, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has already transformed China. Of course, unfortunately, the communism has not disappeared, as your great country, Poland, had experienced it, but Lord has been doing great things (The West is convinced that there is no communism in Poland anymore and that it has already been justly judged and evaluated – ed. note) The Church and even the underground church had transformed China in many ways. For instance, the Chinese conditional culture, especially under communism, is deeply flawed by lack of love and forgiveness. You know, communism is centered on class struggle; one group fights the other group, and hatred has been the centerpiece. But the love of Jesus Christ and his forgiveness have been a major factor attracting so many Chinese citizens to the church; we have seen many families and relationships were restored, even the persecutors took acknowledge of that. In many cases, while those churches, pastors, and church leaders, and believers were persecuted, beaten, even tortured, they have not presented a resentment. Instead, they said: “We still love you, we still forgive you, because you do not know what you do, as Christ prophesized”. And furthermore, the Gospel has transformed China in the area of charity. If you remember, in 2008, there was a major earthquake in southwest China. Hundreds of thousands of people died and 98% of first respondents, those who went into earthquake area to rescue the victims, were Christian. Actually, 90% of them were from the underground churches. They sent food, rebuild schools. Even today, they migrate to these areas affected by the earthquake. The Chinese Communist Party and their administration have to acknowledge the contribution of Chinese Christians. I think that the Chinese Christians has been the true light and the salt; they helped to set social justice, when there have been so many inequalities there, cases of injustice, aggressive controllable corruption and communism, as you have witnessed it in Poland and other Eastern European Countries. There are Christians and the purity of Christian faith in the society. They choose to defend the weak and vulnerable, the elderly, the children in the Chinese courts. Although many of them fight, they are not able to provide in court. Yet, there are so many Chinese human rights lawyers, such as a lawyer Gao Zhisheng – he suffered torture and he disappeared. They fight for social justice, protect the vulnerable and needing, protect the children, who are bullied and persecuted. So that’s another direction for transforming China, even under the current communist regime.

Pastor Paweł Chojecki: I wanted to ask you how the election of US President Donald Trump affected the situation in China. Especially the situation of Christians in China.

B.F: Well, the election of president Donald Trump was barely one year ago, we wait and see many policy changes ahead of us. Compared to the time of president Obama, those 8 years, in this last year there have been some bold steps taken by president Trump to help those who are persecuted because of their religion. Many of the house church Christians were encouraged. President Trump has even made some unprecedented decisions in promoting and protecting the freedom of religious belief, including Christians in China, by granting them the refugee status and helping rescue them out of the most dangerous situation. We have seen that and I have experienced that. I think that so far, it has been going towards the positive direction and, of course, I think many things still can be done. Last week I was in Washington DC. On Thursday, president Trump was there and he said that the US will always stand up for those who suffer from religious persecution. I think that he expressed a very solid and wavering message for religious freedom and human rights.

I was invited twice to the National Security Council, to the White House, by president Trump’s special assistant in the National Security Council. I was only invited once to president Obama’s White House during eight years of his presidency. We talked about the situation of religious freedom and human rights in China. I think that it also shows the difference.

K.Ch.: On Twitter, you mentioned the US defense strategy, so the question is: what policy should Donald Trump implement towards communist China and Russia now?

B.F: I plotted the overall national security strategy that was released a few weeks ago by this new president’s Trump administration. I think that the true danger and threat, even to the whole XXI century, is the threat of the communist China and the increasing bullying influence of Russia in Eastern European and Baltic countries. I am not against the engagement but I propose or agree to the policy of principal engagement, where the strength, including soft power and hard power, should be in full display while we engage with these regimes. Their ideology still consists of communism and dominance. They only believe in those who have power. I think that apologizing to and pleasing this brutal communist powers will make what happened in 1930’s to 1940’s, when the Nazi Germany rose up to the worlds stage, happen again. Just like the communist China is rising now. I think that when we engage with China, when we do business, we should always stick to the fundamental principles: what good can we get by the end of the day if we trade over principles of freedom, liberty and pursue for happiness and, especially, religious freedom. I would always advise Trump’s administration officials, when they engage China, no matter if it’s industry, business or cultural exchange, to never compromise over fundamental principles as liberty, justice, equality and, of course, the fundamental freedoms toward its citizens. So we should never shy away from speaking about persecuted and jailed innocent pastors, catholic bishops and persecuted people of faith. It is not only a violation of universal principles and values but it is also against the Chinese regime’s own constitution. And if they continue to engage this things, if they continue to persecute their citizen’s fundamental rights and freedoms, we cannot trust them and treat them as equal, reliable, responsible global partners that they wish to become.

K.Ch.: Thank you for these words, they are very important for us, because they show what we should defend, and show who is our enemy. And now I wanted to ask this question, I know that you are going to Brussels, to the European Parliament, to speak about the Christians persecuted in China. The European Union is strongly leftist, focused on cooperation with China against the USA. What do you want to achieve there?

B.F: What I want to achieve in April in the European Parliament is that they hear about the situation of human rights and religious freedom in China. I want to inform the European Parliament about what’s really happening in China. The religious persecution has been deterring and increasing, people of faith have been jailed and the Chinese citizens do not have any access to information. There is no Twitter, Facebook, CNN, BBC or FOX News in China. So I want to tell them the stories of what’s really happening in China. And I also want to clarify that I’m not against the engagement, but if engagement means appeasement, it will in the end harm the European Union’s best interest, it will harm the fundamental values of the citizens living within the European Union. I think, if we just stay short-sighted as what some politicians in the European countries are doing by appeasing this rising threat of the Chinese Communist regime, by just thinking of money or trade matters, by ignoring the fundamental human rights and freedom and word of law that the Chinese regime has been violating and suppressing, by the end of the day the harm that it will cause to the European Union and its citizens may be too big and it may be too late to have any remedy. I just want to send that message to the Parliament.

K.Ch.: I have a question concerning the book. In the first part of the programme we did not mention the how you changed. You had been brought up a communist. Now, the question from pastor Paweł Chojecki about your past.

P.Ch.: In Poland, we had similar experiences with communism, probably a bit milder for ordinary people, but I wanted to ask you how it happened that such a declared communist is devoted to Jesus Christ today.

B.F: Yes, that is a miracle. As Christians, we believe in miracles. I had been indoctrinated to be a communist, a defender of socialism up until the time of the (Tian’anmen) massacre in 1989, when the Chinese Communist government sent tanks and military machine guns and started killing many of the Chinese peaceful protestors. This was a wake-up call for two million Chinese intellectuals, so I was regarded as the first generation of Christians in my university. Many of my American teachers who were teaching English and also were dedicated Christians, had prayed for us for many years. I think God has His own timing. Even today, the Gospel of Jesus Christ among the Chinese intellectuals, universities and students is really being revived; we have seen millions of Chinese intellectuals coming to Christ after that tragic massacre, which happened nearly 30 years ago. So by the end of the day, many Chinese intellectuals have realized that there is no hope if we put our ultimate trust in human institutions, especially in the brutal communism like China. They have grown in realization that the only hope is in Jesus Christ. My favorite verse of the Bible comes from The Second Corinthians. It says: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!”. So, Jesus Christ is China’s only hope; he’s the only hope for the Chinese people – not the Chinese Communist Party, nor their government, nor any human institution, I would argue. The only hope can be found in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Through Him the society can be reconciled: between men and God, between men and men, and certainly between the man and the world, the earth. So that’s the only hope, I think, for the world.

K.Ch.: It’s a very, very moving statement and a great honor for us to talk live with Pastor Bob Fu. Many Poles, many of our viewers are delighted with your story, described in the book “God’s Double Agent”, so we receive lots of thanks and a lot of encouragement that we all experience seeing the action of Jesus Christ in your life, in the lives of converted Chinese people.

B.F: Thank you! It’s my honor too.

K.Ch.: I would like to ask you this – at end of your book there is the following call: “It’s tempting to slow down, to spend more time with my family and on myself. But I’m still here, I’m still fighting and – by the grace of God – I’m still going to answer the call”. How would you encourage Christians in Poland and in the rest of the world to such a passionate presence by the side of Jesus Christ?

B.F: I think there is one thing that keeps me going. It is, again, in the Second Corinthians, chapter five. According to the apostle Paul, the love of Christ compels us to make the declaration, proclamation of the Gospel. It makes us reconcile with God, because God loves us so much that we do not have the privilege to indulge ourselves and we should not take our freedom for granted – God has been giving blessings to me and my family and to many others; even to those who are suffering under persecution. I think the unspeakable joy proves that the Gospel of Christ should be our whole life.

When I wake up every morning, I just give thanks to the Lord, that he gives me, and gives you, one more day. If we live, we live for Christ, if we die, we die for Christ, so no matter if we live or die, we belong to Christ. However, the Communist Party in China rarely gives me and my staff, and my colleagues like you, a chance to rest.

Therefore, we have no luxury to rest until those dear brothers and sisters, the same Body of Christ, who are enchained, who are imprisoned, who are still suffering, can be freed and can worship the Lord freely, without being afraid of being arrested and tortured. Before that day we will not, we cannot, rest. And you will find that when you fight for that cause, you will have much more fulfilment in your own life, and you will have more joy. Even with so-called “busyness”, will you find eternal peace in your heart and will you find an even more beautiful family that would be established by the grace and mercy of the Lord.

K.Ch.: As you read the book “God’s double agent”, you can see the passionate love for Jesus among Christians in China. Now I give the floor to Marian Kowalski. What’s the most important message that you learnt while reading “God’s Double Agent” in the summer of last year?

M.K: Yes, I was probably one of the first people in our circles who read this book. I was so much drawn in, I took every possible opportunity to read it, and it took me just a few days to finish it. It was especially important to me that the man who grew up in China, which has nothing to do with our civilization, tried to put his life in line with that system, grew up in poverty that China experienced in the mid-twentieth century, and it was the communist system, in which all the people stopped starving, the children already had access to education, some career path was there, it could be something that, in this mundane thinking, would cause no moral dilemmas. And yet, there was this constant search and verification of the system, precisely from the position of such communists. These young students went out to this square to reiterate the values ​​that this party proclaimed. So that everyone had access to it, so that there would be no cronyism, bribery. So that everything would be consistent with what they believed in. Consistent with the declared system. And it turned out that the tanks driving over people was what they got. It was a crucial moment for many of them, others were terrified, others said that they had been living a lie and with this lie they could not compromise. And it was the moment of the verification of what they believed in, with the “help” of tanks. It was not an intellectual adventure. And on the other hand, look at the courage with which this man has diverted his whole life. He stated that no, he cannot be intimidated like his colleagues, he will not settle like them, he felt alone at that very moment, and found that the system he believed in was a lie. “If is it a lie, I’m going to look for the truth”. And he found the truth. But it required sacrifice. And I think that in that civilization, coming to Christianity from a completely different system of values ​​than traditional, Asian, testifies to the strength of Christianity. Because if we, Poles, assume that Jesus Christ lived in a civilization that is distant for us, in this Middle Eastern, Mediterranean, then it can be seen as a very universal idea, in the course of these two thousand years, regardless of the political conditions in which a man lives, in which civilization a man is born, he finds himself through Jesus Christ. And it is not just an empty talk to make you go to church. It really shows that in places where people, where their society is trampled, the greatest conversions are there. Redirecting your life and giving a testimony, the fact that I have just a few things on my piece of paper, which are my arguments for Friday, when I go to Warsaw and tell all those who are making deals with communists: “What are you doing? I’ve just learned, I have it in writing, what is done with people who are not even give the right to live. And do you want to build a better world with those villains?”

K.Ch.: It is indeed amazing about Christianity that there was persecuted 2,000 years ago, but still spread all over the world. Now China, the country in which they are the most persecuted, in a country closed to Christianity, soon it may be the country with the largest number of Christians in the world.

P.Ch.: I think it already is. When it comes to converts, new-borns, it is probably China that is the first in the world. I just wanted to add such an encouragement to those of us who are struggling with the weak fruit of what they do, that we preach the Gospel, we show the New Testament, we show you how to get in touch with Go Against The Tide, etc. But in my neighbourhood nobody wants to listen. In the story of Bob Fu, described in detail in the book, he went through it only slightly, he talked more about what drew him to Jesus Christ. But there’s the technical aspect – how the Gospel reached him, and it is a very interesting continuation. I would like to remind you that at the end of the 19th century, American Christians, also from the entire Anglo-Saxon world, began a secret mission, in which a missionary, Taylor, was the main figure. And Christianity spread widely at the end of the 19th century. But later, in the boxer rebellion in the early twentieth century, virtually all missionaries were murdered, so were Christian leaders, and it practically seemed that Christianity had died. Christianity was destroyed. And it was Bob Fu who, when he was going through the crisis, got a book from one of Taylor’s pupils, from one hundred years before. Grain sown 100 years earlier germinated. Firstly, in Bob Fu’s new life and then in his service around the world.

K.Ch.: Just like you said in your last teaching – they can kill us, but in every generation there’s someone who will continue our work.

P.Ch.: Somewhere, there’s an apostle Saul waiting. When they persecute the next generation of Christians.

K.Ch.: Let us go through the questions from the viewers. First question: why did you choose the United States and how is your life there?

B.F: Well, that’s a good question. After my wife and I were imprisoned, thanks to so many brothers and sisters’ advocacy and prayers we were released from prison. Then, my wife was pregnant and we couldn’t find any other way but to turn to God. And it is the Lord who opened that door for us so that we could escape from China to Hong Kong. Then, in Hong Kong our first child Daniel was born and we had a hard time to find a country which would accept us as refugees. Even the United States there were some challenges because people knew nothing about the religious persecution in China. But, in the end, three days before Hong Kong was turned over to China, God moved the hearts and the minds of the president Bill Clinton and secretary of state Madlain Albricht, to make the decision to accept our family in the US. We had been tremendously blessed and impacted after we had moved to the US. It has already been 21 years. Of those who have been given much, much is asked by the Lord. So that’s why we want to respond to the tremendous blessing of religious freedom, freedom of press and liberty of this country. We want to be a blessing for our suffering brothers and sisters in China and all over the world. This is a real privilege for us that we are not ones of those many people who had not gotten or obtained. We have no reason to rest until this fight is over.

K.Ch.: The next question is: can you tell that the Chinese will, with God’s help, free themselves from communism? Do you think that help from the outside is needed? If so, what kind of help?

B.F: That’s a good question and I do think that history is in the hands of the Lord. He controls the hearts of kings, and the hearts of emperors, presidents even the leaders of the communist party. I think that maybe God is so humored that we Christians need to thank the communist party for the persecution. It might be needed to revive and purify His church and really make it real vessel of peace for the whole world. If China becomes a democratic country which respect the fundamental freedoms, it would not only be a blessing to the 1,3 billion of its citizens, but I think it would also change the dynamic of the international security, national diplomacy or peace of the whole world. We certainly need to pray for the change of the heart of the regime. But, who would have imagined that in 1989, overnight, it would happen to your country, Poland, and Czech-Slovakia, during the removal of a dictator in Romania and, of course, the rising of Gorbachev, who’s actually my hero, in the former Soviet Union. No strategist, no geopolitical politicians and no futurist had prophesied that. So we trust the Lord. He has his own best timing. Of course, Chinese brothers and sisters are fighting every day, they are not actually fighting against communism, but against the institution, because we know our battlefield is not earthly, it is a spiritual battle. Satan does not want his own people to have the true freedom, so we basically need to continue the fight, continue to pray that the Lord’s timing comes earlier. But as a Paul said, we should rejoice suffering, because we share the suffering, we are granted to suffer with our Lord Jesus Christ. Actually, it is a beautiful privilege. I call this The School of Sufferology, The Theology of the Cross. I learned it from pastor Richard Wurmbrand, the founder of „Voice of the Martyrs” from Romania, who spent over 14 years under communist imprisonment in Romania. So no matter where we are: in Poland, in Romania or even Iran, Iraq, China, or North Korea, as long as we are in Christ, we share and belong to the same body of Christ. So I ask our brothers and sisters in Poland to continue to pray for those who are suffering until one day we can all join hands together to celebrate the freedom that we all rejoice. Maybe even at Tian’anmen square, we can come together to have our public and open worship and praise the Lord. Amen!

K.Ch.: To finish with, the question from our viewers: what organizations, websites in China can inform us about current persecutions? Can an ordinary citizen follow this?

B.F: Yes, if you want to be informed about the latest update on the persecution on human rights, religious freedom and suffering brothers and sisters, you can always log on to http://www.chinaaid.org. And certainly, other ministries which are also ministrant to the persecuted churches around the globe, such as „Voice of the Martyrs” in US, and UK and some other European countries, they have their websites. Ministries like Open Doors or other ministries, sometimes also report on the persecution and news from China.

K.Ch.: In conclusion, I wanted to share my some of my personal thoughts. In the book “God’s Double Agent” you stand up to such a mentality of a locust. Because it was really hard for you to get out of the social lowlands in which you were born, and when you did, you even met the President of the United States, not once, but several times. You have an impact on the politics of the whole world and this is how we can see how great Jesus is. And the things he does are much bigger that we can imagine.

B.F: It really is God’s grace, I was son of a beggar, the lowest among the lowest. It is like what the Scripture said: He raises the poor from the dust, He lifts the needy from the ash heap To make them sit with nobles, And inherit a seat of honor. And that’s a part of my stewardship – how to steward that privilege to advance the freedom, and the Gospel, and God’s Kingdom. So it is nothing but God’s grace.

K.Ch.: Do you have anything to say to pastor Bob Fu?

M.K.: First of all, I would like to thank you for this book, for what you say and do – it is a solid argument that I now have against those who think that communism is not a threat. We have to warm people while there is still time.

P.Ch.: I feel invited to Beijing as soon as China is a free state, a free nation, so that we can actually praise Jesus Christ openly, with the Bibles in hand, on the Tian’anmen Square.

B.F: You’re all welcome.

K.Ch.: This is the end for today. It was a great honor for us to be able to, in this studio in Poland, have the most well-known Chinese Christian who was persecuted by the communists, but thank God he is still here, on this earth, and he is still fighting for Christians persecuted in China. Thank you very much. I would also like to thank Ed. Hanna Shen for recommending the book “God’s Double Agent” to us, Eunika Chojecka for getting in touch with Pastor Bob Fu. And also a big thank you to the entire crew. And a big thank you to Cezary Klosowicz for interpreting live.

B.F: Thank you, I wish I spoke some Polish.

K.Ch.: Last word to our viewers in Poland?

B.F: Lord bless you and hold on to you. Do continue to stand up for our faith, for the Gospel until we see Jesus Christ face to face. Amen!

K.Ch.: This is what we are waiting for. Thank you very much, is was Bob Fu, straight from Texas. God’s double agent.

Translation: Hanna Jazgarska, Cezary Kłosowicz

Cooperation: Korneliusz Kopeć, Krzysztof Machała, Ewelina Pustówka

Watch the interview with Pastor Bob Fu for the ‘Go Against the Tide’ Television, February 13, 2018:

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